'This Week' Transcript 10-22-23: Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin & Sen. Tim Scott

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 22, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Joining us now is Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin.

Secretary Austin, thank you for being here.

I want to start with those moves you announced late yesterday, last night. You've got the USS Eisenhower going to the Persian Gulf. You've got more missile defense systems headed to the region. Troops put on standby. What's behind these moves?

LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, Jonathan, as you know, recently we’ve seen rocket and UAV attacks against bases housing our troops in Iraq and Syria. We're concerned about potential escalation. In fact, what we're seeing is a -- is a prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region. And because of that, we're going to do what's necessary to make sure that our troops are in the right -- in a good position, and they're protected, and that we have the ability to respond.

Now, this additional deployment sends another message to those who would -- who would seek to widen this conflict. As President Biden said earlier and as you've heard me say, if any group or any country is looking to widen this conflict and take advantage of this very unfortunate situation that we see, our advice is don't. We maintain the right to defend ourselves, and we won't hesitate to take the appropriate action.

KARL: Well, in fact, we saw the USS Carney take down those Houthi missiles. Houthis, again, that's an Iranian-backed group in Yemen and also several drones.

Were -- was that takedown defending our ships in the region or was it defending Israel?

AUSTIN: Jonathan, when you have cruise missiles heading towards one of our DDGs, one of our destroyers, that vessel is going to do what it needs to do to protect itself. The same applies for the UAVs.

And I applaud the work of the crew of the Carney. They demonstrated what the -- what our very capable United States Navy can do and will do if challenged.

KARL: And you've given the authority to do that. That was done in an instant.

AUSTIN: They have the inherent right for self-protection there, Jon. Yeah.

KARL: And could we see similar actions if we see Hezbollah or if we see Iran start lobbing missiles towards Israel? I mean, are we effectively ready for air cover for the Israelis?

AUSTIN: Jon, what we're focused on currently is making sure that we're providing the security assistance that Israel needs to defend itself. That's been our focus from the very beginning, and I will tell you that I am in contact with Minister Gallant nearly every day.

I spoke to him on October 7th, the same day that the attack occurred. He identified to me what his needs were at that point in time, and we immediately started flowing security assistance to them.

KARL: And they're about to launch this ground offensive in Gaza. You were at CentCom. You were the CentCom commander when ISIS had control of Mosul, and it took nine months, but you cleared ISIS out of Mosul with our Iraqi and Kurdish partners.

What was that -- what were the lessons you learned there that apply here?

AUSTIN: Well, the first thing that everyone should know, and I think everybody does know that urban combat is extremely difficult. It's -- it goes at a slow pace.

KARL: That was nine months.

AUSTIN: Yes.

KARL: Nine months of intense combat.

AUSTIN: Yes.

This may be a bit more difficult because of the underground network of tunnels that the -- that Hamas has constructed over time, and the fact that they have had a long time to prepare for a fight. So I think you'll see a fight that's characterized by a lot of IEDs, a lot of booby traps, and just a really grinding activity going forward.

Now, one of the things we've learned is how to account for civilians in the battle space, and they are a part of the battle space, and we, in accordance of the law of war, we've got to do what's necessary to protect those civilians.

And as I’ve talked to Minister Gallant and others, I’ve encouraged them to conduct their operations in accordance with the law of war.

KARL: And I want -- I want to ask you on that. We heard some pretty stark words from King Abdullah of Jordan, again, an American ally, no friend of Hamas, obviously, but very critical of what the Israelis have done so far. Let me bring up what he said.

He said: The relentless bombing campaign under way in Gaza, as we speak, is cruel and unconscionable on every level. It is collective punishment on a besieged and helpless people. It is a flagrant violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime.

Is Israel doing enough to protect or to ensure that innocent civilians aren't getting -- getting killed in this?

AUSTIN: We encourage them at every opportunity, Jon, to make sure that, you know, we're accounting for those civilians that are in the battle space that were providing corridors for them to leave the battle space if necessary, and that -- and that they're allowing humanitarian assistance to get into that space as well.

KARL: I – I – Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, one of the Israeli military spokesmen, told ABC this week, “if Hamas places a rocket in the courtyards of schools, we’re going to strike that.”

What – I mean how – what’s your sense – and these are, obviously, incredibly difficult decisions. But is a school a legitimate target if Hamas is using it effectively for cover? How do you – how – how would you handle that? You – you dealt with things like this with -- in Mosul.

AUSTIN: Certainly, you have to evaluate the target, the value of the target, who's on that -- who's on that – who’s at that location. And we always have -- we always get legal advice from our – our – our lawyers who are with us on the battlefield. But, to your point, each target, Jon, needs to be assessed, carefully assessed, and we need to do everything we can to make sure that civilians are not -- are not injured or threatened.

So, the right thing to do is to make sure that we account for civilians in our planning, that we provide corridors for – for their movement out of the battle space, that we are not -- not destroying protected properties in the -- where possible. And I think the Israelis have been doing this for some time. Again, they are a professional force, and we will encourage -- continue to encourage them to make sure that they're doing things in accordance with the law of war.

KARL: At the beginning of the ground invasion in Iraq in 2003, David Petraeus, of course, famously asked the question, tell me how this ends. So how does this end? Israel goes in. Ground offensive in Gaza. What -- what next?

AUSTIN: Well, it’s got – it’s -- it has to transition to something else, Jon. And I think – you know, Hamas is a terrorist organization. And this is not the Palestinian people. Hamas, at the end of the day, Israel wants Hamas to be gone from – from Gaza. What does it transition to? Left to be defined, but I think that's an issue for the region and for the world to – to work together on.

Hamas is not only just an organization. It's an ideology.

KARL: Yes.

AUSTIN: And so it's a – it’s an idea. It's a bad idea. And the way you defeat a bad idea, Jon, is with a better idea. And I do think, going forward, the community needs to work together to address the underlying causes of instability here. And until we do that, then I think we're going to have -- continue to have challenges. But I think the Israelis understand that. They know that. And I think that's the direction that we all hope that we'll move in the future.

KARL: In other words, back toward the idea of a two-state solution.

AUSTIN: As you know, Jon, that's been – that’s been our position all along, a two-state solution is something that we think is – is very, very supportable.

KARL: All right, Secretary Austin, thank you very much for coming in this morning to talk to us.

AUSTIN: Thanks, Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: For more on the humanitarian crisis facing Gaza, let’s bring in the executive director of the United Nations World Food Programme, Cindy McCain, who joins us from Amman, Jordan.

Cindy, you have been conducting shuttle diplomacy to try to get aid convoys into Gaza. We’re starting to see some aid flow. But how dire is the humanitarian crisis right now in Gaza?

CINDY MCCAIN, U.N. WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Well, first of all, thank you for covering this.

The situation is catastrophic in Gaza right now. There has been no food, no water, no electricity. You’ve heard all the stories.

Yesterday we were able to get 20 trucks to cross. And by that 20 trucks total, three of which were WFP. And so we were able to feed about 200,000 people last night during dinner.

But that’s not enough. That’s a drop. We need – we need secure and sustainable access in there, in that region, so that we can feed.

This is a catastrophe happening and we just simply have to get these trucks in.

KARL: And you have – you have the material there on the ground in Egypt ready to go in. It’s a matter of getting the – getting the clearance.

MCCAIN: Yes.

KARL: And – and – and what’s holding it up?

MCCAIN: Well, I think a number of things are. we were able to get 17 more trucks in just now actually, just a little while ago I understand. And there is a proposed 40 more tomorrow. But this dripping of the system is not going to work. At one – and prior to the war beginning, there were about 400 trucks a day going through. So, you know what – what it could be.

We simply have to have this because – because, as I said, people are starving but also this is a – this is a national security issue for everyone in this region. Starvation and – and the lack of food is – is a security issues. And so we just want to make sure that people can feed themselves and that, you know, we have the opportunity and the ability to give them a sustainable life as best we can.

But remember, this is a war zone and things are very fluid. And so that’s why these trucks have got to be able to get – we have to be able to get these trucks in safely and sustainably.

KARL: But how do you ensure it gets to the people who need it and doesn’t get it in the hands of Hamas?

MCCAIN: Well, we have a WFP team that’s already on the ground. They’ve been there for a long time. And so we have the – we have the implements in place. We are able to track and trace our bags. We’re able to – to – to make sure from – from an electronic standpoint that our – that our folks who are supposed to get the aid are actually the people that are getting the aid. So, we do the very best we can to make sure that it does go to the right people.

But, again, as I said, this is a war zone and things happen. And I'm – and that – that is tragic in – in the – in the end. But, believe me, we do the very best we can.

KARL: All right, Cindy McCain, and thank you for the work you’re doing on the ground.

Up next, there’s still no speaker of the House. We’ll talk to Republican Congressman Michael McCaul, the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

We’ll be back in two minutes.

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