'This Week' Transcript 10-1-23: Rep. Matt Gaetz and Rep. Mike Lawler
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 1, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive
KARL: Joining us now is Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida, who has been Speaker Kevin McCarthy's chief antagonist in all of this.
So, I want to start right with what you've been saying all along, that you would move to oust him as speaker, and what McCarthy said just yesterday.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): (INAUDIBLE) joined together to do what is right. If somebody wants to make a motion against me, bring it. There has to be an adult in the room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: So, are you going to do it? Are you going to move to oust him?
REP. MATT GAETZ, (R) FLORIDA: Kevin McCarthy is going to get his wish. I don’t think the adult in the room would allow America to sit atop a $33 trillion debt facing $2.2 trillion annual deficits. I don’t think the adult in the room would allow $8 trillion of this debt to come into refinancing at a higher level without serious spending cuts. And I don't think the adult in the room would lie to House conservatives. And that is exactly what Kevin McCarthy did.
In January, to get the speakership, Kevin had to agree to certain guardrails on spending. And he had to agree to a process that would allow us to put some downward pressure on spending. Since the mid-90s, this country has been governed by revolving continuous resolution and omnibus spending bill. And what that means is that America’s lawmakers take one up or down vote on the funding of the entire government. That is crazy. That is the reason we're $33 trillion in debt. We want to move to single-subject spending bills. So, he made that commitment. He broke it. And if, at this time next week Kevin McCarthy is still speaker of the House, it will because -- be because the Democrats bailed him out and he can be their speaker, not mine.
KARL: So – so when – when do you make this move?
GAETZ: You'll be seeing it this week.
KARL: This week. OK.
GAETZ: That's why I came on the show this week.
KARL: Now – now – now, look, it takes only one person, obviously, you, to – to call for a vote to remove him. A so-called motion to vacate. But you would need a majority to remove him, which means you're going to need Democrats to remove him. Do you really think that Democrats are going to vote to remove Kevin McCarthy because he made a deal with Democrats?
GAETZ: No, I actually think Democrats are going to bail out Kevin McCarthy. So, this is an exercise to show the American people who really governs you and how that governing occurs.
KARL: So it’s –
GAETZ: I'm on a mission to change it where we're evaluating these bills independently. Kevin McCarthy is off making a secret deal on Ukraine as he's baiting Republicans to vote for a continuing resolution that doesn't include Ukraine. So, the one thing Democrats, Republicans, the White House, that we all have in common is that Democrats – is that Kevin McCarthy, at one point or another, has lied to all of us. But if they want to keep him, then he belongs to them.
KARL: But so -- so you're not accomplishing anything here. I mean it –
GAETZ: That's not true.
KARL: Well – well, you -- you don't have the votes to remove him, so –
GAETZ: Well, I don’t – I – by the way, I don’t know until we have them (ph). And, by the way, I might have – not have them the first time, but I might have them before the 15th ballot. That’s the number of ballots Kevin McCarthy needed.
KARL: So, are you going to this every day like you had suggested? Are you going to, like, go – go through this process of voting over and over and over again?
GAETZ: I am relentless, and I will continue to pursue this objective. And if all the American people see it that it is a uni-party (ph) that governs them, and that it is always the Biden, McCarthy, Jeffries government that makes dispositive decisions on spending, then I am – I am seeding the fields of future primary contests to get better Republicans in Washington who will actually tackle these deficits and debts.
KARL: I mean if you somehow succeed after multiple tries, I mean who would be the speaker?
GAETZ: Well, we have a lot of – look, we have a lot of talented people in our conference. Obviously, it's – it’s a – it’s an awkward discussion while our number two, Steve Scalise, is in treatment for blood cancer.
KARL: Yes.
GAETZ: So it’s -- I'm not going to pass somebody over because they're getting a medical treatment. I want to – I want to see how Steve Scalise comes out of that.
KARL: All right.
I want you to listen to what Hakeem Jeffries said after the bill passed.
GAETZ: Ah, Kevin's new boss. Let's hear from him.
KARL: OK, let’s listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): It was a victory for the American people and a complete and total surrender by right-wing extremists who, throughout the year, have tried to hijack the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: I guess you agree with – you agree with part of that. You agree it was a total surrender?
GAETZ: No, it wasn't a surrender by – by the MAGA wing. We lost. A defeat is not a surrender. There were 90 Republicans who voted against this bad deal, and we did not prevail because -- here's what I've observed in the 118th Congress. On matters of frivolity, or messaging bills, Kevin McCarthy is fine partnering with House conservatives. But whenever it comes to the money, right, the debt limit, the budget process, Kevin McCarthy's true coalition partner is Hakeem Jeffries.
KARL: But – but I – I want to – you -- you've faced some criticism from fellow conservatives on this who say that you are the one that basically knee-capped McCarthy because he tried to do a bill that included changes in border policy, he tried to do a bill that would have cut some spending.
This is what Erick Erickson said after the bill passed, “conservatives got the whole of the House GOP to agree to cut the government by 8 percent as their opening negotiation with the Senate, but Matt Gaetz decided his grudge against Speaker McCarthy was more important. So he helped scuttle cuts, and now the government is going to grow.”
They're saying this is your fault.
GAETZ: The cuts were illusory (ph). That was a mirage.
KARL: I mean he – he –
GAETZ: The – the Biden administration had already put out a statement of administration policy that they were going to veto that. The Senate had already said they weren't going to take it up. So, this is about what turf we battle on to reduce spending.
I do not believe that we will ever reduce spending if the manner of negotiation is just, what is the condition or the ornament that we're going to hang on to a continuing resolution. Since the mid-90s this government has been ruled by continuing resolution or omnibus bill. That's why we're $33 trillion in debt.
My plan, to go into single-subject spending bills would actually allow us to put that downward pressure. And I’ve acknowledged that in divided government you have to work with Senate Democrats. You have to work with the White House.
KARL: But --
GAETZ: But I don't think you should work with them on a continuing resolution or omnibus bill. You should make those Senate Democrats have to take up our defense bill to give troops a raise, take up our homeland security bill to make changes at the border, take up our veterans bill.
And if they did those things, people would have to vote on specific programs rather than just saying, oh, well, you know, I voted for the government funding bill, and sure there's some stuff at the Department of Education I don't like, but I had to be there for the veterans and the troops.
KARL: So, I know you say this is not personal with Kevin McCarthy, but it sure sounds personal.
GAETZ: I’m only talking about substantive de-dollarization.
KARL: Okay. But let me ask you about the relationship. When was the last time you talked with him one-on-one? I mean, have you had a --
GAETZ: Well, a matter of fact, just a couple weeks ago, Kevin McCarthy appointed me to the National Defense Conference Committee on the NDAA, and we spoke about some of our alliance and defense priorities. So, this isn't personal.
Some people make policy disagreements personal because their own policy failures are so personally embarrassing to them. I hold no personal animus to any -- with any of my Republican colleagues, by the way, including my Republican colleague you're about to have on next, who’s had terse words for me.
But at the end of the day, this is about spending. This is about the deal Kevin made in January.
I do resent the fact that Kevin is like owned by lobbyists and special interests --
KARL: That's personal, by the way.
GAETZ: It’s not personal. It’s substantive.
KARL: That’s an attack on a guy’s integrity.
GAETZ: Well, it is an attack on the system that he has used to obtain the speakership.
I am fighting for a different system.
KARL: All right.
GAETZ: One based on spending guardrails, agreements on process.
Kevin promised us 72 hours to read the bill. We didn't have it.
He promised $100 million wouldn't go on to the suspension agenda without the opportunity for amendments. Broke that deal, too.
And he promised us we could return to pre-COVID spending levels. There’s almost no promise he hasn’t violated.
KARL: All right. Matt Gaetz, thank you for joining us this morning.
GAETZ: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHALANDA YOUNG, DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: Our message is simple, House Republicans need to stick to their agreement we already reached, and they already voted for. Do the job they were elected to do. Enough is enough. A deal is a deal.
Extreme House Republicans need to stop playing political games with people’s lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: That was President Biden’s budget director, Shalanda Young, at the White House on Friday, urging House Republicans to uphold the budget deal she helped negotiate with President Biden back in the spring.
Shalanda Young joins us right now.
YOUNG: Thanks, Jon.
KARL: Thank you for being here.
So, tell me, it looked like a shutdown was happening and yet everybody was anticipating, and McCarthy went forward and defied many in his own party to keep the government operating.
Does Kevin McCarthy deserve credit?
YOUNG: Let me tell you, whew! But why?
(LAUGHTER)
YOUNG: Why brinksmanship? Why the theater? Why to the last minute?
I will tell you, if I’m sick of it, I can only imagine what the American people are feeling. Why go down this road, take us so close? Let me tell you, there were 200 Democrats who saved us from shutdown.
Go look at the votes. Democrats stepped up, make sure the government continued running and we appreciate the speaker finally upholding the budget deal we all agreed to this summer. finally
KARL: I mean, certainly, this wouldn’t have happened without Democrats. But McCarthy had to -- had to go forward with this, even facing threats to his job. So, I mean, does he, late or not, deserve credit for that?
YOUNG: That’s the job of the speaker. I worked in the House a long time. So, a masterful speaker I worked in Speaker Pelosi. That’s a job of speaker, put the American people before anything else. Keep your end of the bargain, keep your end of the deal.
We have a deal. I appreciate the speaker for keeping it. But, boy, vote after vote after vote, 30 percent cut. They want to fire 12,000 FBI agents. When none of that worked, finally, finally, putting the bill on the floor that serves the American people and kept his end of the bargain.
KARL: I know you’re not on the Hill anymore, you’re at the White House, but let me ask you, if these renegade Republicans move forward with their threats to try to remove the speaker of the House because he worked with Democrats, do you think Democrats should go along with that? Because it obviously require Democrats to vote to remove him as well.
YOUNG: Let me tell you, I’m going to leave that to my former colleagues on the Hill.
KARL: You’re not taking --
(CROSSTALK)
YOUNG: Absolutely not. This is when I appreciate being the budget director for the President of the United States. I’ll leave the intrigue of what happened. But let me tell you, showing up for the American people, making sure that women and children can get nutrition, making sure that FAA can continue to operate, making sure we have disaster relief funding, and for 47 days, that’s what we’re talking about. That’s the easy part. It should not be this difficult to do what most Americans think is Congress’ basic job.
KARL: This bill has $16 billion for emergency relief. But it doesn’t have money obviously for Ukraine. How confident are you, is the president, that Ukraine funding will pass? I mean, we’ve seen a majority of House Republicans now on record opposing more funding for Ukraine?
YOUNG: Well, you’ve also seen over the past week is the coalition of Democrats and Republicans who have voted in the House to ensure that their most extreme cannot remove Ukraine funding from the defense bill. So, we’ve seen the coalition. We’ve seen the majority of Congress still supports Ukraine. We’ve seen that the majority of Congress understands what’s at stake in Ukraine.
Who are you for, Western democratic values or dictators like Vladimir Putin?
So, I’m confident because I’ve seen the proof in both, of Republicans and Democrats who have voted to make sure we keep our commitment. Those votes are there. We know there’s a willing coalition, and I’ll certainly expect members and the speaker to keep their commitment, not to us, but the Ukrainian people we told we will be there.
KARL: I mean, McCarthy has also made commitments to Republicans that he wouldn’t bring up bills that a majority of them opposed. And -- so, I mean, you have to trust McCarthy to keep his commitment with you but not his commitment to Republicans. I mean, he’s in a -- he’s in a top spot here.
YOUNG: It’s a tough job.
(LAUGHTER)
KARL: What’s going to happen in 45, or as you point out, 47 days technically? I mean, aren’t we going to be back here at the same -- same spot?
YOUNG: Let me tell you, we need to start today to make sure that we do not have this brinkmanship, last-minute anxiousness of the American people. Let’s do our jobs to not have this happen again. Let’s have full year funding bills at the end of these 47 days. Let’s not do this again.
KARL: Do you have confidence in McCarthy to -- to deliver on what he agreed to in a debt ceiling deal?
YOUNG: Speaker McCarthy is one member. You saw a coalition, mostly Democrats and Republicans who say enough is enough. That’s what that vote was yesterday. That’s what their vote was, in the House and Senate. Strong bipartisan votes that people want to do the right thing.
We have to use that coalition of bipartisan members to start work now to make sure we aren’t in this place again.
KARL: All right. Shalanda Young, OMB director, thank you --
YOUNG: Thank you.
KARL: -- for joining us.
The roundtable is next. Plus, we reflect on the life and legacy of Dianne Feinstein with a look back at her very first appearance on this program.
We’ll be right back.
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