'This Week' Transcript 8-6-23: John Lauro, Rep. Pete Aguilar and Gov. Doug Burgum

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, August 6, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: We’re joined now by Donald Trump’s attorney, John Lauro.

Mr. Lauro, thank you for joining us this morning.

JOHN LAURO, ATTORNEY TO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Good morning.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to start with the man who’s probably turning out to be one of the top, if not the chief witness for the prosecution in this case, former Vice President Mike Pence. He’s taken issue with your contention that President Trump was simply asking him to pause the certification.

Let’s take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The American people deserve to know that President Trump and his advisers didn’t just ask me to pause, they asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: What’s your response?

LAURO: Yes.

Mike Pence will be one of our best witnesses at trial. I read his book very carefully. And if he testifies consistent with his book, then President Trump will be acquitted for these reasons.

Number one, Mr. Pence recognizes that John Eastman, who was giving legal advice, was a renowned legal scholar.

Number two, Vice President Pence recognized that there were discrepancies and fraud in connection with the election. He wanted it to be debated on Capitol Hill. Mr. Trump wanted it to be debated in the state legislatures. But what – make no mistake about it, based on what Vice President Pence will say, the government will never be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump had corrupt or criminal intent. And that’s what this case is about.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, what Mike Pence has said all this week is that what President Trump did was wrong and he knew it was wrong and he was pressing him to do something that was wrong. It was also pretty clear –

LAURO: He never said it was criminal.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He said it was wrong.

LAURO: He never said it was criminal. There – there may be a difference. You may think that somebody is acting inappropriately under constitutional principles, but Mr. Pence, who’s a lawyer, never said to Mr. Trump, I think what you’re doing is criminal. That’s very important.

One of the things that – you’ve been there as – in – in White House meetings. A lot of –

STEPHANOPOULOS: Not a meeting like that, but go ahead.

LAURO: A lot of options are – are – are on the table are discussed. The ultimate option that Mr. Trump asked for, President Trump asked for at the Ellipse speech, was merely to pause the voting for a period of time to allow the state legislature to weight in.

STEPHANOPOULOS: For many – for many days before that he was insisting that they would reject the votes. He was making it very clear to Mr. Pence that he wanted them rejected. You’re right that he eventually went to the Ellipse and said, let’s pause the votes.

Now even that, though, you talk about Mr. Eastman. Even that Mr. Eastman said was a violation of the law. So, he didn’t know that he was breaking he law.

LAURO: No, he didn’t say that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, he did say that.

LAURO: No, he didn’t say. He said –

STEPHANOPOULOS: (INAUDIBLE) minor violation of the law.

LAURO: No, he said that the Electoral Count Act was unconstitutional. And the only thing that’s required under the Electoral Count Act is a vote on January 6th, which Mr. Eastman said, which is very important.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He said in the email that it was a violation (INAUDIBLE).

LAURO: No, but you have to let me finish. You have to let me finish.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, but I – I was responding to something that was –

LAURO: Yes. No, because – no, because what Mr. Eastman said is that the Constitution is superior to any statue and it – and it trumps the Electoral Count Act. What he was saying is that ultimately the right of the state legislatures, under the Constitution, exists to weigh in on this issue, to recertify or audit.

So, what Mr. Eastman was saying – and Mr. Trump is not a lawyer. Let’s understand that. He’s a – he’s – he’s a – he’s a political leader and a businessman. What – what Mr. Eastman was saying, as an attorney, is that there is a constitutional pathway to making this ask. And one thing that Mr. Trump did, he only asked. You’re allowed to petition your government for a redress of grievances. A president is even allowed to petition his vice president. That has never been criminalized before. This is the first time it has happened.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Because it is the first time anybody’s (ph) ever tried to stop a certification of the voting.

You talked about Mr. Eastman right there. Mr. Eastman did say that he believed that rejecting the – the – the certification would lose 9-0 in the Supreme Court.

LAURO: But that option was not the ultimate one that was passed.

STEPHANOPOULOS: (INAUDIBLE) –

LAURO: And all of those points, most importantly, were discussed among council in – in a meeting in terms of the opportunity for people to weigh in. These kinds of constitutional –

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, except – wait – hold on – I know I have to stop you there because that’s not –

LAURO: These kinds of constitutional debates happen all the time.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That actually not accurate. Mr. Trump excluded his White House council from the – from the ultimate meeting with Mr. Eastman because he didn’t want his White House council there because his White House council was telling him it was wrong.

LAURO: Yes, but – but – but Vice President Pence had his lawyers there. And – and also he had Mr. Eastman there to make that pitch.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And he said Mr. Eastman (INAUDIBLE) crazy.

LAURO: And they brought (ph) up (ph) – and – and – but that’s fine. That’s what happens in constitutional debates. People disagree all the time about constitutional points, but nobody gets indicted. These are not criminal cases. This is how the electoral system works out. Nothing is more important and sacred than people's speech.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And that will be sorted (ph) out.

LAURO: And – and you have to have the ability, even in the White House, to discuss these various political and constitutional options.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And that will be adjudicated in the court. It’s good to see that you’re welcoming Mr. Pence as a witness.

President Trump also said this week that he never told Mike Pence that he is, quote, too honest, as alleged in the indictment. Is the president prepared to say that under oath in a court of law?

LAURO: The issue was described in Mr. Pence’s book with respect to some of the legislation that was going on. And Mr. Pence said that he recalls Mr. Trump saying that Mr. Pence’s position on a particular piece of litigation that was going on was – was hyper technical and hyper legal. That’s a side issue. No one is going to be concerned about that. I cannot wait – I cannot wait until I have the opportunity to cross examine Mr. Pence because what he will do is completely eliminate any doubt that Mr. Trump, President Trump, firmly believed that the election irregularities had led to inappropriate results.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And if he has notes –

LAURO: What was so frustrating for President Trump was that he thought that Vice President Pence was certifying an election that was not lawfully held. And he had every right to petition his vice president to deal with that issue.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I just want to go back to the issue of too honest. You’re saying that the president – he’s saying that Mike Pence did not say that. What if Mike Pence has notes? (INAUDIBLE) –

LAURO: I'll – I'll ask – I'll ask Mr. Pence the circumstances of that. But as – as described in Mr. Pence’s book, it dealt with litigation. That was my –

STEPHANOPOULOS: I'm asking about as (ph) described in the indictment.

LAURO: As described in the indictment?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes.

LAURO: It’s up to the government to prove that. And I'll be –

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, and then I want to go back to –

LAURO: Well, but it appears to be contrary to what Mr. Pence was saying.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I go back to my original question.

LAURO: Right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Will President Trump, under oath, take the stand and say that Mike Pence did not say that.

LAURO: Let me say one thing, this is a criminal trial. It’s up to the government to prove these things. The defense has no obligation to prove anything. We put the government to its test. The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump had criminal intent.

What Mr. Pence is saying, in his book, and if he’s consistent in his book, is that Mr. Trump, President Trump, did not have criminal intent. He certainly disagreed with him as a constitutional matter, but he not once suggested, even till today, I've never heard him say that he thought that President Trump acted criminally. I think if I ask him on cross examination he’s going to say it’s shocking that the Biden administration brought this as a criminal case.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, we’ll see what he says when he’s under cross examination.

You still haven’t answered my question about whether or not President Trump is going to take the stand.

LAURO: I – that’s impossible to say right now. What we have to see is what – what the – what the Biden administration is going to put on evidence. If they put on Vice President Pence as a witness, I think the case will be dismissed after the government’s case. It will never come to a defense case because the government – the government really has no evidence of criminal intent. What they have to show beyond a reasonable doubt is that President Trump did not believe that this election had irregularities and improprieties.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So it –

LAURO: They would have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, the – Smith is pretty clear in the indictment about the fact that President Trump lost the election. So you’re arguing that Trump won or that he believed his lies about the election?

LAURO: No, here’s what people don’t understand. This is a criminal case where they have to prove, not whether or not he won, but whether or not he was acting corruptly, whether or not he was acting with a consciousness of guilt, with criminal intent. He’ll never be able to prove that. That’s the point.

The – whether or not Mr. Trump or – or Mr. Biden won, there’s no question that there were irregularities and – and anomalies in the election. This election was held –

STEPHANOPOULOS: Actually, ever single court that looked at it said there weren’t – there weren’t irregularities (INAUDIBLE) the election. (INAUDIBLE) look at it.

LAURO: This – this election was happen – this election – this election was occurred in a – occurred in a pandemic. Not every court got to address the merits. As you know, most of the cases were dismissed prior to the merits.

Now this is a criminal case. The burden of proof is on the government, not on the defense.

One thing that Mike Pence and President Trump agree on, and there’s no doubt about it, is that these issues needed to be debated on January 6th. Mr. Pence wanted them to be debated in Congress. He invited congressional leaders to make objections, to raise issues of fraud, to raise issues of irregularity. The only difference was that Mr. Pence wanted it to be done on Capitol Hill. President Trump wanted it to be done in the state legislatures.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The difference is that Mike Pence wanted to certify the election. He said he was right to certify the election. He said President Trump was wrong to pressure him not to do that.

LAURO: In his book he said he wanted an open debate.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That’s not what he said. That’s not what he said right now and that’s not what he did.

LAURO: Well, you have to read his book.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He certified it.

LAURO: No, you have to read his book.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I did read his book.

Let me ask you a final question.

You – the – the prosecutors have also asked for protective order governing the discovery – the discovery materials. You’re supposed to respond by 5:00 p.m. tomorrow to the judge.

LAURO: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What’s your response going to be?

LAURO: This is an attack on you and members of the press. I'm – I'm really surprised people haven’t spoken out about it. What the government – what the Biden administration is trying to do is prevent the press from learning about exculpatory and – and helpful information, evidence, that the people have a right to know about.

What – what the position of the prosecutor is non-sensitive. Ordinary evidence should not be disclosed to the press. That’s shocking. Not only do they want to violate President Trump’s first Amendment rights, they want to violate freedom of the press. And I'm surprised that the major networks aren’t filing papers along with me on Monday.

STEPHANOPOULOS: We will see what the judge has to say.

LAURO: I can get you a lawyer.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Mr. Lauro, thanks for joining us this morning.

LAURO: Good to see you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Thank you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And we're joined now by the chair of the House Democratic Caucus, Pete Aguilar, also served on the House January 6th Committee.

Congressman, thank you for joining us this morning.

I want to get right to your response to Mr. Lauro. He said the government's never going to be able to prove corrupt intent on the part of Mr. Trump.

Your response?

REP. PETE AGUILAR, HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS CHAIR & (D) CALIFORNIA: That's just not true. I'm confident that the government will prove that. Jack Smith, in his indictment, said that the former president deliberately disregarded the truth. That was his quote. And our January 6th Committee report showed time and time again that President Trump was told he lost the election by his campaign lawyers, by his advisers. And some of those political advisers told him from even before the election that they weren't going to accept the results of a free and fair election. That's just the truth and those are the facts that we laid out in our report.

STEPHANOPOULOS: We also saw Mr. Lauro say that he welcomes the chance to cross-examine Mr. Pence, thinks that Mr. Pence is going to be a helpful witness for the defense. Based on what you know from the January 6th committee, based on what you know from the indictment, your response?

AGUILAR: Well, I – I hope that the president's lawyers then stop putting up hurdles and indicate that they want a speedy trial. That's, I think, where we can get to the – to the root of this. If they want to have their day in court, they should remove any hurdles and they should seek the truth and seek their day in court. I think the former president's afraid of that. And I think the American public can see right through that and – and knows.

But, look, this is something that we want to be adjudicated in the courts. If -- we'll let them hash out what that looks like under cross-examination. I played a royal in the Pence hearing and I can tell you I wish that he would have shared some of those notes and some of that information with the January 6th Committee. But it's clear that Vice President Pence took notes and has a pretty good memory of what the president told him and the pressure that he was under from January – from a Christmas Day phone calls to January 1st, New Year's Day, to the Oval Office meeting on the 3rd and the pressure campaign on the 4th and 5th. And then when the former president still didn't get his way, he tweeted out that Mike Pence has the ability to change this. And – and that's just unfortunate.

But the bottom line, George, is, everybody saw this. Everybody saw exactly what the former president was doing. We saw the attack on the Capitol, the attack on the police officers and the insurrection. And so for his lawyers or for him to somehow say that this was just a mistake and bad legal advice is pretty sad at this point.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, that -- that's going to be the key – it seems to be one of their key arguments. Not only the president, First Amendment right to say whatever he wanted to say about the election, but this was – be he was relying on legal advice. This was routine, constitutional debates inside the Oval Office and that every president has the right to petition his government for redress of grievances. He was certainly putting a lot of pressure -- put a lot of stress on that point.

AGUILAR: Yes, he lost 61 times in court when they were challenging the election results. Sixty-one times. And so I think it's just, you know, the height of hypocrisy for them to, you know, bring those arguments out now.

I think it's pretty clear -- I'm not a lawyer, George, but it seems pretty clear to the American public that they are throwing everything they can at the wall and they are trying to see what sticks. The bottom line is, for us to have accountability, we need to ensure that there aren't two sets of legal systems, one for the rich and powerful and one for everyone else. And the former president is allowed his presumption of innocence and his day in court. And I hope that he pushes forward with that and so we can hear these charges even further and we can get to this evidence. That's where we will have, you know, true accountability, and that's what we want.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You just said there's a two-tiered legal system. That’s the same argument in reverse being made by the House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: It seems as though every time Trump goes higher in the poll, he gets a new indictment. It seems to me, after you learn of the real dealings behind the Bidens, the next day he gets indicted. Any time there is new information, the federal government just seems to have a two-tier system.

STEPHANOPOULOS: We also just saw, in Jon Karl's piece, that he seemed to be suggesting that, under the same rules, that Hillary Clinton and Al Gore should have been indicted as well. Your response to that argument?

AGUILAR: Look, Hillary Clinton and Al Gore didn't encourage their supporters to charge the Capitol and overturn a free and fair election. I think it's pretty clear that the -- that the current speaker is -- is pretty frustrated by this. But, you know, this is a guy who stood in the -- in the well of the Capitol building and said that Donald Trump bears responsibility.

The only thing that changed is that he needed to count votes to secure the speaker's gavel. That's the only thing that changed. And so now he has to be, just like many others, a key supporter of the former president, just to hold his caucus together. They have to continue to espouse these extreme, you know, theories and beliefs. And by the way, this is also someone who said years ago that he created the Benghazi subcommittee to attack Hillary Clinton's poll ratings when she got high in the polls, so not exactly a lot of credibility when it comes to this.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Congressman, thanks for your time this morning.

AGUILAR: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. DOUG BURGUM, (R) NORTH DAKOTA & (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can improve the life of every American. We know we can bring out the best of America. We know that we can help America realize its fullest potential, if we get it right on -- get it right on the the economy, get it right on energy and get it right on national security.

People have to understand that there's a -- a great alternative out there, someone who's had a career in business, someone who's taken a shower at the end of the day, not the beginning of the day, someone who understands hard work, someone who understands commitment and service. (END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: North Dakota governor and Republican candidate for president Doug Burgum, he joins us now.

Governor, thank you for joining us this morning.

I know you want to talk about your campaign and the future, but the fact is that Donald Trump is the front-runner right now. He's facing three felony indictments. Have you read the indictments, and what's your reaction to them?

BURGUM: Well, George, good morning, great to be on with you. And I -- and I appreciate the question, but, you know, there's an entire industry built around commenting on President Trump, and -- and I'll just leave it to the pundits. I mean, we're in a position today where, when we're out talking to voters in Iowa and New Hampshire, they're not asking about the indictments. If they want to, they can turn on a cable news network and watch that seven by 24.

But what they are asking about is inflation. You know, prices are up almost 30 percent versus two years ago. They're paying too much for their gas. They're paying too much for their food. They're concerned about our relationship with China. And -- and these are the things that we're focused on in our campaign every day because, as you said in the lead-in, we have an opportunity to improve every American life.

We’ve got to be looking to the future, not to the past. Presidential campaigns should be about the future, not about the past. And that's what we're bringing, that voice to this -- to this campaign.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah, well, there's a difference between is and odd (ph) and what is right now is Donald Trump is the front-runner. He’s been charged with three felony indictments including for trying to overturn the election.

Was Donald Trump wrong when he Pence -- when he pressured Mike Pence not to certify? Was Mike Pence right when he certified?

BURGUM: George, again, I just have to say, you guys -- I just listened to 15 minutes of legal debate on this thing and -- and I’m sure you could run it again, 7 by 24. But what I know is that I’m running against Joe Biden and that's what we're going to be talking about, and, of course, not a mention in the last 15 minutes of, you know, Hunter Biden or the laptop.

Americans out there do concern. There are people on the ground that are not watching these Sunday programs that are saying, you know, why is the -- why is the DOJ defending Hunter Biden and why are they attacking President Trump?

It does seem political to people and I think the folks in Washington have to understand that, you know, if they're surprised why Trump is leading the polls, it is basically people pushing back and saying, hey, we don't trust the system. And that's a bigger problem for America in any case --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: But I -- hold up. But -- but, Governor, I’m asking you what you think. Do you have an opinion on the fact that the President Trump tried to overturn the election as alleged in the indictment this week by special prosecutor Smith?

BURGUM: I’m not a lawyer. I’m an entrepreneur, and I’m -- I’m someone who leads and operates businesses. It’s something -- I care about the people of this country, and you're asking me, you know, basically a legal question.

We're focused on the future. There are just so many people that want to weigh in on this topic around the clock. And you know who loves it when all we do is talk about this? Of course, President Biden does because then we don't have to talk about inflation or Afghanistan or the Russian invasion, the fact we're in a cold war with China.

And you know who else loves it? China loves it when America is divided like this and talking about the past. This is perfect. This is how democracies fall is when citizens lose confidence in their institutions.

When I’m president, the number one thing we're probably going to have to do is rebuild trust in the actual institutions that are the foundational thing, because right now, Americans are not trusting. That's the signal that you're getting is that people don't trust the system and that’s -- and that's a scary thing for our country.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It's not simply a legal question, sir. It's a moral question. It’s an ethical question. It’s a question about civics.

Do you believe the president was -- Trump was right to try to overturn the election results?

BURGUM: I believe that the election -- that Joe Biden won the election and I believe we have to move on to the future. But I do believe there were irregularities in terms of how the election went and those are going to be explored. The court is -- courts will go through all of that, and they’ll do that.

And, again, panel after panel talk about it, but everybody is innocent until proven guilty. That's the way the system works in America.

And we should be talking about the energy, economy and national security. We've got a wide-open border. I’m going down to see North Dakota National Guard troops at the border tomorrow. I’ve been down there before.

But, you know, with 110,000 overdose deaths last year in America, 107,000 the year before, that's 300 people a day. Could you guys run a panel on that and talk about why are we losing sons and daughters every single day to fentanyl that's coming into our country, that's being manufactured by China?

Because when we're on the trail and talking to people who come to us and say, we lost our niece, our nephew, our son or daughter, they're concerned about that. They're concerned about why isn't the federal government doing its job. Part of the job is national security and part of that job is protecting our border. Why aren't they doing that?

STEPHANOPOULOS: And we've covered those issues extensively. But you're not answering my questions about the front-runner who you need to defeat in order to become the presidential candidate for the Republican Party. You mentioned irregularities. Those have been adjudicated by the courts dozens and dozens of times and they ruled against President Trump every single time.

Mike Pence said, flatly, I really do believe that anyone who puts themselves above the Constitution should never be president of the United States. Do you believe that President Trump has disqualified himself?

BURGUM: I believe your question about -- you're basically saying, you know, when -- and you know the position that I’m starting from, George, eight weeks ago, we launched our campaign. We're just getting started.

Most of America doesn't know who Doug Burgum is. It's the job of a campaign to try to explain to people. When I was in business and we were a start-up and started with ten kids in North Dakota and built a 2,000 -- you know, a billion dollar company. When -- a first trade show I went to, there were 64 companies there.

We didn't start by saying, oh, we think the guys that are in the lead have got all these problems. We talked about what we could do for the customer. What we could do for our partners, what we could do to improve their lives and their businesses.

We’re doing the same thing here because when you're starting where we're starting right now, we have to talk about what we can do to get this economy running instead of crawling. How we can solve energy. Everybody is paying too much for their gas and energy.

And we're empowering foreign dictators. China imports 10 million barrels of oil a day, and we send leaders over there and don't even talk about it. Americans not just independence, that could be American energy dominance. We could -- we are literally having an unstable world. And every question we get is about the past and not the future. I'm running for the future of America. And we're going to keep talking about that at every stop.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Governor, thanks for joining us this morning.

BURGUM: Thank you, George.

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